Anyway. Specifically with the topic of this post, I’ve been taught much on “total depravity.” And not necessarily from my pastors, but from people in the congregation… I’ve seen this taken to a point that I consider too far. I think they forget that God said we were very good when he created us. And even after the fall, David said you knit me in my mother’s womb. We are beautifully and wonderfully made, and after salvation, we are redeemed and transformed. I’ve never been fully comfortable with imputed justification, the idea that we are hiding under an umbrella of righteousness. They seem to understand themselves as humble when they final realize their total depravity. I understand this point of view, and have at many times believed it myself. But I feel an unsettling in my spirit when I hear people speak about it lately.

I resonated with Augustine when I was taught that he said before the fall we could choose between good and evil. After, we could only choose evil (like God says about our hearts before the flood). After Christ, we can again choose between good and evil, and in heaven, we can only choose good. I don’t know what that says about us being inherently good or inherently evil, but it’s just about all I can say. I guess I need to do more studying.

Thanks for the post. I’m going to start following this blog for some more perspective.

I didn’t mean to imply that anyone here had expressed that idea, just that in my experience as a college professor I found that in the general population of students the idea that man is inherently good= there is no such thing as sin. They pretty much buy into the Enlightenment idea of the noble savage, that mankind in a natural state is unfallen. Thus it seems to me the bigger problem in society right now is not that people think that man is inherently evil but that people deny the existence of sin.

To me the question is a loaded one in a way that I guess most Christians don’t even consider; but non-Christians would see it in a different light. Thus I feel the need to qualify the statement that mankind is inherently good because without that qualification there can be an unintended implication that there is no sin.

I agree that while we have been created good and that good is what God intends us to be, people continue to sin. I also agree that God needed to restore what had been broken. We as Christians believe Christ has restored all things through his life, death and resurrection.

I would not agree that we are completely incapable, due to the fall, of choosing good. If this were true, no one would ever choose a path of conversion of life unless without God forcing them to do so. This would take away free will which is contrary to Christian teaching.

As far as relying on the US government, the Chinese government, or any other one, I don’t think anyone here has expressed the idea that salvation comes from any particular ideology.

Thanks again for your comment. I am pretty certain we agree that human beings are in need of healing and that process can be difficult, but if we weren’t inherently good, it seems to me that there would be no point in it.

The slightly longer answer would be: Man was created good; but has been broken and needs to be healed of that brokenness.

The reason my first response is neither is that I think there is a danger inherent in the position that mankind is inherently good unless you add the qualifier about brokenness.

To willfully ignore fallen human nature and the human tendency to sin is perhaps one of the greatest of modern errors. It is at the heart of modern totalitarianism and especially Marxism.

There is a strain of thinking that people are all basically good and that it is outside systems that are bad. If we can only implement the right form of government or abolish government all together, this line of thinking goes, then we can achieve world peace, make this world into a new Garden of Eden. This line of thinking is prevalent in America too with intellectuals who think that maybe totalitarianism isn’t such a bad thing. People who think maybe America needs to be more like China, for just a little bit, to save us from ourselves.

Mankind is good. Very, very good. God said as much on the sixth day of creation. We are made in His image and He is Goodness and Beauty and Truth and Love.

But our first parents marred that image when they tried to be like gods and we all inherited from them an illness that hinders our ability to choose the good.

If we ignore the effects of original sin, if we place too much faith in mankind’s inherent goodness, then we don’t need a savior. Christ’s sacrifice becomes unnecessary. Or we think that the evil in the world must result in some other place than in the human heart, we are tempted to shift the blame away from ourselves and seek a scapegoat elsewhere. This can place an unbearable burden on human institutions to save us. But there is no governmental plan that can eradicate sin from the human heart and all our attempts to try to fix things for ourselves will only result in more misery and heartache or in gross injustice and mass murders. Our only hope is to turn to the one who made us and to ask him to restore that which we broke.

Thanks for stopping by the blog. I hope you will visit again sometime.

What amazes me is how my attempt to promote a friend’s blog resulted in an interesting theological discussion and the importance people give to this subject in particular.

FC